evidence of God, a rational belief

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1 Who created God ? on Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:54 pm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=who+created+god+%3F&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g5

Who designed the Designer?

God has always existed, independent from anything he created.Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time God is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn't have a cause.So, if there were onces absolutely nothing, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.

God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent. And this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be. Why must God be this way?Our universe cannot be explained any other way. It could not have created itself. It has not always existed. And it could not be created by something that itself is created. Why not?It isn't coherent to argue that the universe was created by God, but God was in turn created by God to the second power, who was in turn created by God to the third power, and so on. As Aristotle cogently argued, there must be a reality that causes but is itself uncaused (or, a being that moves but is itself unmoved). Why? Because if there is an infinite regression of causes, then by definition the whole process could never begin.


The question is tricky because it sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that the question does not even make sense. It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.

How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.






http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer?pagename=q_and_a


It's not clear why this question is supposed to be a problem for a design inference. In general, in order to recognize an explanation as the best, you don't need to have an explanation of the explanation. In fact, so requiring would lead to an infinite regress of explanations, so that nothing could ever be explained, and science would be destroyed. In the case of a cosmic Designer we can leave it an open question for future inquiry whether this being even has a designer and if so, who that designer might be.

Now your concern is different than Dawkins'. You say that we can infer an unknown designer for, say, archaeological artifacts because we are familiar with the production of such artifacts by human beings. It was precisely to forestall this sort of objection, however, that I gave my second illustration concerning astronauts' finding a pile of machinery on the back side of the moon. They know that no country other than the U.S.A. has successfully carried out moon landings and that we didn't leave that stuff there! We might not have even a clue as to the function of these devices, they are so unfamiliar. Nevertheless, even though such machinery is not the product of human intelligent design, it is still clearly the product of intelligent design.

The salient point is that intelligent design is characterized by certain recognizable earmarks that tip us off to its presence quite independently of our familiarity with the designer. In William Dembski's analysis in The Design Inference it is the combination of high improbability plus conformity to an independently given pattern. If we discover such characteristics in, say, a signal emanating from outer space, as in the movie Contact, then we may infer that the signal is not random noise but the result of some sort of intelligence out there and that we are not alone.

In the case of biological complexity, any reservations we have about a design inference is not because we haven't seen, for example, trees being produced by intelligent design, but rather because we are uncertain that a tree does exhibit those earmarks of intelligent design such as high improbability plus an independently given pattern. The detractor of design will offer a naturalistic, evolutionary story to show that the improbability of the existence of a tree is merely apparent and so warrants no inference of design.

I think, then, that whether or not we are familiar with human production of certain artifacts is really a red herring. Rather the relevant questions will be: (1) What are the characteristics of intelligent design, and (2) Does some entity exhibit those characteristics?


Videos :

Who created God

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=82e744093088135b9570

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=who+created+god+%3F&search_type=&aq=f

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=who+created+god+%3F&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#









Who Created God? A Response to Dawkins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-SgDpyiKPc&feature=related



What Caused God?

Dr. William Lane Craig answers.

Who created God? Did He have a cause? If the universe needed a cause, why not God?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWiEVNqKhRc



If Eveything Needed a Creator, Then Who Created God?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgBZlhp2XqU&feature=related



Should We Believe Only What Can Be Scientifically Proven?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW-8ia4T-kg&feature=related



Who Designed the Designer?: a response to Richard Dawkins

William Lane Craig responds to Richard Dawkins' "central" argument, and the problem of "who designed the designer".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnhMmJPnnDo



Who Designed the Designer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrSvh1_m94c



Who designed the Designer?

Critics of intelligent design theory often throw this question out thinking to highlight a weakness in ID. Richards shows that the theory's inability to identify the designer is not a weakness, but a strength. ID does not identify the designer is because ID limits its claims to those which can be established by empirical evidence.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zbUl9NZISQ&feature=PlayList&p=64400B3DF2304CD6&index=0



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2 Re: Who created God ? on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:02 am

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/created.html

If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.

Consider the universe. Scientists once held to the "steady-state" theory, that the universe has always existed without beginning.

Cosmological evidence now refers to the "Big bang" as the point in time that the universe came into being. Our space-time-matter-energy universe had a distinct and singular beginning.

Since it did not always exist, but came into existence (had a singular beginning), then some other reality must have caused or created it.1

Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. God however is in a different category, and must be so. God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent. And this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be. Why must God be this way?

Our universe cannot be explained any other way. It could not have created itself. It has not always existed. And it could not be created by something that itself is created. Why not?

It isn't coherent to argue that the universe was created by God, but God was in turn created by God to the second power, who was in turn created by God to the third power, and so on. As Aristotle cogently argued, there must be a reality that causes but is itself uncaused (or, a being that moves but is itself unmoved). Why? Because if there is an infinite regression of causes, then by definition the whole process could never begin.



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3 Re: Who created God ? on Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:33 am

http://www.comereason.org/exst_god/exs010.asp


http://www.gotquestions.org/who-created-God.html

Question: "Who created God? Where did God come from?"

Answer: A common argument from atheists and skeptics is that if all things need a cause, then God must also need a cause. The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God). This is a slightly more sophisticated form of the basic question “Who made God?” Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,” then He must have a cause, right?

The question is tricky because it sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that the question does not even make sense. It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.

How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.

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4 Re: Who created God ? on Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:54 pm

Who created God?

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html

A number of skeptics ask this question. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question Who created God? is illogical, just like To whom is the bachelor married?

So a more sophisticated questioner might ask: If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn't God need a cause? And if God doesn't need a cause, why should the universe need a cause? In reply, Christians should use the following reasoning:

Everything which has a beginning has a cause.1
The universe has a beginning.
Therefore the universe has a cause.
Its important to stress the words in bold type. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning, as will be shown below. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn't need a cause. In addition, Einstein's general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space.


Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time God is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn't have a cause.

In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.

1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy the heat death of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible.

So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.


Now, what if the questioner accepts that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause? But it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause no-one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. So would all law enforcement, if the police didn't think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house.

Also, the universe cannot be self-caused nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

IN SUMMARY

The universe (including time itself) can be shown to have had a beginning.

It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.

The universe therefore requires a cause, just as Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:20 teach.

God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed, so doesn't need a cause.

OBJECTIONS

There are only two ways to refute an argument:

Show that it is logically invalid

Show that at least one of the premises is false.

Is the argument valid?

A valid argument is one where it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. Note that validity does not depend on the truth of the premises, but on the form of the argument. The argument in this article is valid; it is of the same form as: All whales have backbones; Moby Dick is a whale; therefore Moby Dick has a backbone. So the only hope for the skeptic is to dispute one or both of the premises.

Are the premises true?

1. Does the universe have a beginning?

Oscillating universe ideas were popularized by atheists like the late Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov solely to avoid the notion of a beginning, with its implications of a Creator. But as shown above, the Laws of Thermodynamics undercut that argument. Even an oscillating universe cannot overcome those laws. Each one of the hypothetical cycles would exhaust more and more usable energy.

This means every cycle would be larger and longer than the previous one, so looking back in time there would be smaller and smaller cycles. So the multicycle model could have an infinite future, but can only have a finite past.2

Also, there are many lines of evidence showing that there is far too little mass for gravity to stop expansion and allow cycling in the first place, i.e., the universe is open.


According to the best estimates (even granting old-earth assumptions), the universe still has only about half the mass needed for re-contraction. This includes the combined total of both luminous matter and non-luminous matter (found in galactic halos), as well as any possible contribution of neutrinos to total mass.3

Some recent evidence for an open universe comes from the number of light-bending gravitational lenses in the sky.4 Also, analysis of Type Ia supernovae shows that the universes expansion rate is not slowing enough for a closed universe.5,6 It seems there is only 40-80% of the required matter to cause a big crunch.

Incidentally, this low mass is also a major problem for the currently fashionable inflationary version of the big bang theory, as this predicts a mass density just on the threshold of collapse a flat universe.

Finally, no known mechanism would allow a bounce back after a hypothetical big crunch.7

As the late Professor Beatrice Tinsley of Yale explained, even though the mathematics say that the universe oscillates, There is no known physical mechanism to reverse a catastrophic big crunch.

Off the paper and into the real world of physics, those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, and that's the end.8

2. Denial of cause and effect

Some physicists assert that quantum mechanics violates this cause/effect principle and can produce something from nothing. For instance, Paul Davies writes:

spacetime could appear out of nothingness as a result of a quantum transition. Particles can appear out of nowhere without specific causation Yet the world of quantum mechanics routinely produces something out of nothing.9

But this is a gross misapplication of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics never produces something out of nothing. Davies himself admitted on the previous page that his scenario should not be taken too seriously.

Theories that the universe is a quantum fluctuation must presuppose that there was something to fluctuate their quantum vacuum is a lot of matter-antimatter potential not nothing.

Also, I have plenty of theoretical and practical experience at quantum mechanics (QM) from my doctoral thesis work. For example, Raman spectroscopy is a QM phenomenon, but from the wavenumber and intensity of the spectral bands, we can work out the masses of the atoms and force constants of the bonds causing the bands. To help the atheist position that the universe came into existence without a cause, one would need to find Raman bands appearing without being caused by transitions in vibrational quantum states, or alpha particles appearing without pre-existing nuclei, etc.

If QM was as acausal as some people think, then we should not assume that these phenomena have a cause. Then I may as well burn my Ph.D. thesis, and all the spectroscopy journals should quit, as should any nuclear physics research.

Also, if there is no cause, there is no explanation why this particular universe appeared at a particular time, nor why it was a universe and not, say, a banana or cat which appeared. This universe can't have any properties to explain its preferential coming into existence, because it wouldn't have any properties until it actually came into existence.

Is creation by God rational?


A last desperate tactic by skeptics to avoid a theistic conclusion is to assert that creation in time is incoherent. Davies correctly points out that since time itself began with the beginning of the universe, it is meaningless to talk about what happened before the universe began. But he claims that causes must precede their effects. So if nothing happened before the universe began, then (according to Davies) it is meaningless to discuss the cause of the universes beginning.

But the philosopher (and New Testament scholar) William Lane Craig, in a useful critique of Davies,10 pointed out that Davies is deficient in philosophical knowledge. Philosophers have long discussed the notion of simultaneous causation. Immanuel Kant (17241804) gave the example of a weight resting on a cushion simultaneously causing a depression in it. Craig says:

The first moment of time is the moment of God's creative act and of creation's simultaneous coming to be.

Some skeptics claim that all this analysis is tentative, because that is the nature of science. So this cant be used to prove creation by God. Of course, skeptics can't have it both ways: saying that the Bible is wrong because science has proved it so, but if science appears consistent with the Bible, then well, science is tentative anyway.



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5 Re: Who created God ? on Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:43 pm

The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe

http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html

Numbering the series from the present backwards only shows that if there are an infinite number of past events, then we can denumerate an infinite number of past events. But the problem is, how can this infinite collection of events come to be formed by successive addition?

We can summarize our argument as follows:

1. Whatever exists has a reason for its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external ground.
2. Whatever begins to exist is not necessary in its existence.
3. If the universe has an external ground of its existence, then there exists a Personal Creator of the universe, who, sans the universe, is timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, necessary, uncaused, and enormously powerful.
4. The universe began to exist.
From (2) and (4) it follows that

5. Therefore, the universe is not necessary in its existence.
From (1) and (5) it follows further that

6. Therefore, the universe has an external ground of its existence.
From (3) and (6) it we can conclude that

7. Therefore, there exists a Personal Creator of the universe, who, sans the universe, is timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, necessary, uncaused, and enormously powerful.
And this, as Thomas Aquinas laconically remarked,{67} is what everybody means by God.

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6 Re: Who created God ? on Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:56 pm

God Didn't Need A Beginning

http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/16-03-2010/112596-beginning-0

We've all asked the question from the age of 2. Why did the universe have a beginning but not God? If God didn't have a beginning why should the universe have a beginning. Couldn't the universe just have always existed? Why a need for God?

Tactical Operational Missile Complex Tochka-U in Action
More...

The answer is found in understanding why the universe had to have a beginning. Science supports Einstein's claim that the universe is a closed system. That means it has finite energy. Even though energy cannot be created or destroyed (by any natural processes), over time the useful energy in the universe becomes more and more useless. This is known in science as the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If the universe were eternal then all of the energy would have become totally useless by now and I wouldn't be writing this article and you wouldn't be reading it either!

Isn't the Second Law of Thermodynamics merely an expression of probability? Yes, but the probability is so high and certain that the odds of just one calorie of energy spontaneously defying the Second Law would be trillions times trillions to one, and the universe is made up of far more than just one calorie of energy!

We know from the First Law of Thermodynamics in science that matter/energy cannot be created from nothing by any natural process. Since the second law teaches us that the universe does not have the ability to have sustained itself from all eternity and first law teaches us that the universe could not have brought itself into existence, the only logical and rational conclusion is that a supernatural power (God) brought the universe into existence. Furthermore, the complexity and order in the universe logically points to a supreme mind. Disorder in the universe is because of chance but the high degree of order can only be rationally explained due to a supreme mind or intelligence.

Natural laws may explain how the order in the universe operates, but mere undirected natural laws are insufficient to explain the origin of that order. Even in life, once there is a complete and living cell then the code and mechanisms exist to direct the formation of more cells. The problem is how did life come about when there was no already existing directing code and mechanism in nature.

And what about the stars? Oh, yes, gravity may explain how the order found in the precise courses of trillions of stars is maintained, but mere undirected gravity cannot explain the origin of that order!

What about natural selection? Natural selection is a passive process in nature making sure that only the fit survive. Natural selection doesn't produce anything. It can only "select" from what is produced. Natural selection is not an energy converting and directing mechanism, and natural selection only operates once there is life and reproduction and not before.

God's nature doesn't require that He have a beginning. God is self-sustaining. The universe is not. And because the universe is not ultimately self-sustaining, the universe requires creation (a beginning) as well as a supreme designer and a supreme sustainer. In other words, the universe requires God.

Ultimately, however, scientists concede that the Second Law of Thermodynamics will conquer the entire universe and the universe, if left to itself, will end in what scientists predict will be a heat death because all of the energy in the universe will reach a uniform state where no more work of any kind will be possible. Even a contracting and expanding universe would no longer be possible in such a state. This proves, as mentioned earlier, that the universe could not be eternal or otherwise it would have long ago reached this point of uniform energy decay or level.

All of this simply supports the belief that an intelligent power outside of nature and the universe was responsible for its origin and order.

Science cannot prove that we came about by creation or by chance processes, but educators and students should be free to investigate and make up their own minds as to which position the scientific evidence best supports.

Belief in neither chance origins nor creation is necessary to the actual study of science itself. One can understand the human body and become a first class surgeon regardless of whether he or she believes the human body is the result of the chance forces of Nature or of a Supreme Designer.

It takes faith to believe we're here by chance or by design. The latter is the wiser faith.

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7 Re: Who created God ? on Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:39 pm

Everything must have been created by something, but the answer as to whom created what is pointless. The answer is never-ending. Therefore, any god to which you attribute the universe that you see is actually a lesser god. He/she had a creator, who had a creator, who had a creator ... by your way of thinking, we must be, indeed, children of a lesser god.

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8 Re: Who created God ? on Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:14 pm

The two statements are contradictory.
- Everything must have been created by something.
- God was not created.

...UNLESS God doesn't exist. Then the logic is okay.

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9 Re: Who created God ? on Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:58 pm

elshamah888 wrote:God Didn't Need A Beginning

It takes faith to believe we're here by chance or by design. The latter is the wiser faith.

How do you define 'faith'? It's belief without evidence. Without evidence.

Are you seriously saying that chance can't happen? Nothing happens by chance? What's the chances of you having an original thought? Or were you designed not to have original thoughts?

The fact that we are here and scientists are demonstrating how we got here, gives us some valid and falsifiable reason to hold the worldview that we do. Your faith is clearly blind, because it's based on a combination of wishful thinking, peer pressure, fear et al.

In your own words for this debate, please explain why unfounded blind faith is wiser that making considered decisions based on real evidence.

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10 Re: Who created God ? on Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:00 pm

seadad wrote:
elshamah888 wrote:God Didn't Need A Beginning

It takes faith to believe we're here by chance or by design. The latter is the wiser faith.

How do you define 'faith'? It's belief without evidence. Without evidence.

Are you seriously saying that chance can't happen? Nothing happens by chance? What's the chances of you having an original thought? Or were you designed not to have original thoughts?

The fact that we are here and scientists are demonstrating how we got here, gives us some valid and falsifiable reason to hold the worldview that we do. Your faith is clearly blind, because it's based on a combination of wishful thinking, peer pressure, fear et al.

In your own words for this debate, please explain why unfounded blind faith is wiser that making considered decisions based on real evidence.


where did i say my world view is based on blind faith ?

I base my faith in God on rational evidence :

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t5-arguments-for-the-existence-of-god

the beginning of the universe- the universe had a beginning and needs a Cause
the continued existence of the universe- the existence of dependent beings necessitates the existence of a totally independent Being
the design and order in the universe- the design/information in the universe needs an Intelligence to produce it
the possibility of human knowledge (human reason)- human reason needs a rational Cause
the existence of universal, eternal, unchanging truths (logic)- the source for these truths must be an eternal, unchanging Mind
the reality of universal, eternal, unchanging moral laws- objective morality proves the existence of an eternal, unchanging moral Lawgiver
the meaning of life (purpose)- if God does not exist, life is absurd
a reason to be oprtimistic about the future- God and eternal life are needed for eternal hope
a guarantee that evil will ultimately be defeated- apart from the death, resurrection and return of Jesus there is no guarantee that evil will be defeated
free will and human responsibility- if only matter exists, then there is no such thing as free will & we are not responsible for our actions.

http://carm.org/lack-belief-analysis-outline

To say you believe there is no God has problems

To say "I believe there is no God" is a conscious choice.

Then, on what would the atheist be basing his belief that there is no God: evidence, lack of evidence, logic, faith, or a combination of all?

If evidence, then what positive evidence is there that disproves God's existence?


If lack of evidence, then it means he has not yet seen all evidence, and there might be sufficient evidence to demonstrate God's existence. This would mean that God may indeed exist, and the person is really an agnostic concerning God, so his atheist position is inconsistent with his statement.
If logic, then what logical proof do you have that negates God's existence?
At best, logic can only disprove theistic proofs. Disproving theistic proofs does not mean there is no God. It only means that the proofs thus presented are insufficient.
Logic can only disprove theistic proofs that are presented, and negating such proofs is not a refutation of all possible proofs since no one can know or present all possible proofs of God's existence. Therefore, negation of proofs does not disprove God's existence.
If there were a logical argument that proved God did not exist, it either has not yet been made known or it doesn't exist. If it were known then it would be in use by atheists. But since no proof of God's non-existence has been successfully defended by atheists, we can conclude that thus far, there are no logical proofs for God's non-existence.
If faith alone, then the position is not held by logic or evidence and is an arbitrary position.
If by a combination of evidence, logic, and/or faith, then according to the above analysis, neither is sufficient to validate atheism. A combination of insufficient means does not validate atheism.
For someone to believe there is no God is to hold that belief by faith since there is no evidence that positively supports atheism and there are no logical proofs that God does not exist. It is, after all, virtually impossible to prove a negative.

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11 Re: Who created God ? on Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:03 am

... where did i say my world view is based on blind faith ?

I base my faith in God on rational evidence :

That's like saying that because a blind man doesn't say he's blind, therefore he's not. Your faith is blind because it's a belief without evidence. That's why it's called faith.

Merely repeating a column of statements and assertions does not make those assertions true. Do you know what rational evidence is? Do you understand the word rational in that context? Do you think it may have something to do with testability and falsifiability? There's nothing rational about assertions and wishful thinking. Only wibble.

For someone to believe there is no God is to hold that belief by faith since there is no evidence that positively supports atheism and there are no logical proofs that God does not exist. It is, after all, virtually impossible to prove a negative.

Proving a Negative.

Again, your words above are simply a series of logical fallacies and strawmen.

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12 Re: Who created God ? on Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:20 am

seadad wrote:... where did i say my world view is based on blind faith ?

I base my faith in God on rational evidence :
That's like saying that because a blind man doesn't say he's blind, therefore he's not. Your faith is blind because it's a belief without evidence. That's why it's called faith.


I have presented you the evidence i base my faith on. Its faith, because there is no proof of Gods existence. But it is a rational faith, because it is based on compelling evidence.


Merely repeating a column of statements and assertions does not make those assertions true.


That is just a short introductions of several reasons which lead rationally to God. The link will lead you to indepth explanations of each issue i presented you.

Do you know what rational evidence is? Do you understand the word rational in that context?


yes, sure.


Do you think it may have something to do with testability and falsifiability?


not necessarly. But if you think, reason should stand on the ground of logical positivism, then you do not stand on more secure ground, since the existence or unexistence of God cannot be verified empirically.

http://www.fluther.com/114856/why-isnt-atheism-considered-another-form-of-faith/

If I understand the concept of atheism correctly, atheists do not believe god(s) exist(s) or in the afterlife (i.e. heaven, hell, etc.).

If absolutely no one knows with absolute certainty what’s on the other side of death, then wouldn’t atheism be considered another form of faith as it’s based on an hypothesis that can only be confirmed by seeing the other side of death?

There's nothing rational about assertions and wishful thinking. Only wibble.


i agree. What makes you think that is my case ?


Again, your words above are simply a series of logical fallacies and strawmen.


why ?

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13 Re: Who created God ? on Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:30 am

elshamah888 wrote:I have presented you the evidence i base my faith on. Its faith, because there is no proof of Gods existence. But it is a rational faith, because it is based on compelling evidence.


What absolute nonsense. All mutually exclusive and contradictory in terms. Truly laughable.

Faith is belief without evidence. But you claim to have presented evidence on which to base your faith. Therefore such evidence is meaningless because there's no proof of God's existence. FFS why not?!

Then you call it rational because it's based on compelling evidence. Evidence which leads you to no proof of God's existence!

Admit it, you're a closet atheist. lol!

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14 Re: Who created God ? on Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:41 am

elshamah888 wrote:If I understand the concept of atheism correctly, atheists do not believe god(s) exist(s) or in the afterlife (i.e. heaven, hell, etc.).

If absolutely no one knows with absolute certainty what’s on the other side of death, then wouldn’t atheism be considered another form of faith as it’s based on an hypothesis that can only be confirmed by seeing the other side of death?

Is there any testable evidence (anecdotes don't count) that there is anything after death? No. No faith required. Another strawman.

Atheism is not a(n) hypothesis. How many mores times does it need saying?

elshamah888 wrote:
seadad wrote:There's nothing rational about assertions and wishful thinking. Only wibble.


i agree. What makes you think that is my case

You really are a glutton for punishment. Wink

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15 Re: Who created God ? on Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:58 am

seadad wrote:
elshamah888 wrote:I have presented you the evidence i base my faith on. Its faith, because there is no proof of Gods existence. But it is a rational faith, because it is based on compelling evidence.


What absolute nonsense. All mutually exclusive and contradictory in terms. Truly laughable.

Faith is belief without evidence. But you claim to have presented evidence on which to base your faith. Therefore such evidence is meaningless because there's no proof of God's existence. FFS why not?!

Then you call it rational because it's based on compelling evidence. Evidence which leads you to no proof of God's existence!

Admit it, you're a closet atheist. lol!


http://www.rationalchristianity.net/rational_faith.html

Skeptics often object that belief in the Christian God, or any god at all, is a matter of having blind faith without any rational reason for one's beliefs. But faith doesn't have to be blind. God created us with thinking minds and he wants us to use them, and he gives us reason to believe in him.

How can people start to believe in God?
How can God hold atheists and the unreached accountable for rejecting him?

We're all given clues that prompt us to seek God. We all wonder how the universe got here and why we ourselves are here. We all wonder if there's a larger meaning or purpose to life. Nearly everyone lives in a society where there is a concept of God and where people talk about God and spirituality. These questions prompt us to think about God and ask questions like "Does God exist?" and "How can I communicate with God?" In addition, many people have access to the Bible, which claims to record the words and actions of God, and have heard of Christianity or even interacted with Christians.

People can choose to act on these clues by praying and continuing to ask questions and look for answers. Those who have exposure to Christianity can investigate it by talking with Christians, attending church, reading the Bible, etc. We continually make choices about whether we will seek God and draw closer to him or not: we choose to do right or wrong, to think and talk about God or not, to pray or not, etc. These are the choices God will hold us accountable for. However, he will judge people according to the number of clues that were available to them, so those who have heard the Gospel will be held to a higher standard than those who have never heard of Christ (Luke 12:47-48; see also What happens to the unreached?).


How can one come to rationally believe in God?

Suppose a person acts on the clues described above and starts to investigate Christianity. They can learn more about it in a number of ways. If they attend church and/or interact with Christians, they can determine if Christians' faith is genuine and life-changing. If those Christians are loving, joyful, etc., particularly if they were known to not be that way before they became Christians, that's reason for the person to consider that Christianity's claims could well be true and continue investigating. If the person reads the Bible, they can compare what the Bible says about life, human nature, etc. with their own experiences and see if those parts are true; they can also research its historical accuracy. If the parts they can immediately verify are true, there is reason for believing that the rest of it could be true as well.

Most importantly, if the person asks God to reveal himself to them and enable them to know who he is, God can interact with them in an individual way that gives the person further reason to believe. God, as an omniscient teacher, knows what will be convincing evidence for each person, and knows what lessons they need to learn (and the best way for them to learn) in order to come to believe in him. This experience with God gives the person reason to believe God exists and is willing and able to teach them and help them; it also confirms some of what the Bible says about God and his character. (For more on this, see Why should I pray?).

The investigator who has done all of the above has plenty of reasons for believing in God: they've seen the effects of his interaction with others, their experience (and possibly research) has so far confirmed what the Bible says, and they've personally interacted with him. This evidence, not to mention other reasons for believing that one may discover, is enough for any Christian to believe there's a rational basis for their faith.

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